Wednesday, May 6, 2009
Mary Lee Orsini
On July 2, 1982, in the late afternoon, the victim was found shot to death in her western Little Rock home. That afternoon at about 4:20 p.m., a neighbor saw a car with no license plate and with a homemade delivery sign in the window pull into the victim's driveway. She observed a black man, carrying flowers, emerge from the car and hand the flowers to the victim. The black man was Larry McClendon, one of the accomplices. She then saw the driver of the car, a white male, get out of the car and walk toward the door. The white male was Eugene "Yankee" Hall, the other accomplice. Later she saw the two men drive away. At trial she identified McClendon's car as the one she had seen. Shortly thereafter the victim's husband arrived home and, being unable to locate his wife, called the police. During a search of the house, the victim's body was found in an upstairs closet. At the victim's feet was a flower arrangement. The crime scene investigation [***9] revealed three bullet holes; one in the hallway, one in the closet where the body was found, and one in the body of the victim. The principal witness for the State was Eugene "Yankee" Hall. His testimony about his and appellant's participation in the murder was corroborated by the testimony of various witnesses and physical evidence found at the scene of the bombing and the scene of the shooting. Hall testified that he had met appellant in the Spring of 1982 and had spent several nights at her house. During the following weeks the [**249] two of them conspired to kill Alice McArthur. In May of 1982 he and appellant purchased an explosive contained in a shampoo bottle, made a bomb, and placed it in the victim's car where it exploded without seriously injuring her. Parts of a shampoo bottle containing the high explosive Torvex were recovered from the bomb scene at the McArthur home. Two witneses identified appellant as the woman who accompanied Hall when he [*353] bought the explosive. They identified appellant's automobile as the vehicle in which the pair was traveling. Evidence introduced at trial reflected that a telephone call made to the seller of the explosive [***10] from a bait shop on the day of the purchase was billed to appellant's telephone number. Another witness testified that appellant had told her several days before the bombing incident that a bombing would occur.
Hall stated that, after the bombing failed to kill Mrs. McArthur, he agreed with appellant to a contract murder of the victim for $ 25,000 to be paid by the victim's husband, the trigger to be pulled by Larry McClendon. Appellant gave him $ 325 for expenses. Hall testified that appellant agreed to obtain the murder weapon. Circumstantial evidence corroborated Hall's testimony that the murder weapon was obtained by appellant. A ballistics expert testified that the three bullets were fired from a short barreled revolver and were a unique Federal type bullet manufactured between 1956 and 1975. Dr. Wulz, a witness for appellant, stated that he and appellant had been engaged in a continuing romantic relationship for several years and that he had owned an eleven or twelve year old .38 caliber revolver. He further testified that he discovered the pistol was missing about a week prior to the murder. The ballistics expert testified that the three bullets retrieved from the crime [***11] scene were the same type as those in a box of shells which Wulz had kept at home and had delivered to the prosecutor Hall further testified that appellant had devised the scheme for him and Larry McClendon to pose as a florist delivery service and that appellant had made the florist delivery sign. Hall testified that on the day of the murder he and McClendon went to Phillips Wrecker Service in North Little Rock to get the florist delivery sign out of a car that he had been driving. An employee of the wrecker service corroborated this fact. Hall testified that on the day of the murder he purchased a flower arrangement and removed the license plate from McClendon's car before putting the floral delivery sign in the car window. An employee of Leroy's Florist at Cantrell and Kavanaugh in Little Rock testified that she prepared the flower arrangement found at the [*354] murder scene. Before Hall picked up the flower arrangement, he telephoned appellant, and appellant telephoned the victim's residence to make sure she was home. Evidence was introduced to corroborate Hall's testimony that appellant telephoned the victim the afternoon of the murder. The record reflects that a [***12] tracing device, or trap, along with a microcassette tape recorder, had been placed on the McArthur telephone. A transcription of the telephone tape recovered from the home the day of the murder established that a telephone call made to the victim at 1:59 p.m. had been made from appellant's residence. The caller asked for "Mama." Two witnesses identified the voice of the caller as the voice of appellant. This corroborated Hall's testimony that appellant telephoned the victim the afternoon of the murder to determine if she was home. Soon after the telephone call to appellant's home, appellant drove by Hall and McClendon on her way to a pre-arranged appointment with her attorney, Bill McArthur, the victim's husband. Two witnesses from the McArthur law firm testified appellant had made an appointment for 4:00 that afternoon. As she passed Hall and McClendon, she got a go ahead sign from Hall. After the murder, Hall threw the gun and florist sign in the Arkansas River. He then telephoned appellant who told him she had been unable to get the payoff money that day. Within a few days after the murder, appellant told Larry Burge, an acquaintance, that she had received an anonymous [***13] telephone [**250] tip that Larry McClendon had killed Alice McArthur. At appellant's request, Burge relayed this information anonymously to the sheriff, who verified receiving it. The next day appellant again contacted Burge, telling him she had received more information about the murder and had made notes on this information. The notes were written down on yellow pieces of paper. At appellant's request Burge agreed to pose as an anonymous caller and relate to her the information she had written down. Burge made the call, naming McClendon as the man who fired the gun and stating that McClendon had been seen with a white man earlier in the day. Appellant tape recorded this message and, on the pretext of having received the call from an anonymous source, took the tape to the sheriff. At trial [*355] Burge identified the yellow pages as the notes written in appellant's handwriting and given to him by her for the purpose of making his call. These three yellow pages were removed from appellant's person the night she was arrested. Since the staged anonymous call, based on notes prepared by appellant, was information only a person involved in the murder would know, this [***14] evidence corroborated Hall's testimony that appellant conspired with him to commit murder.
Excerpts from Mary Lee Orsini transcript
The following is a series of excerpts from a July 17 interview between Mary Lee Orsini and Sgt. Jim Dixon and Major Jackie Goodson of the Pulaski County sheriff’s office. The transcript was edited only for basic spelling.
Sergeant Dixon: Could we start with uh, when you got up the morning, or the date of the occurrence.
Mary Lee Orsini: Okay, okay. Well the crime was actually committed uh a little bit after one o’clock in the morning on March the twelfth. Uh I had uh, stolen my husband’s gun some weeks before. Uh I had secreted it in the house and uh um that that morning uh, I got up and uh, I went into the bedroom. My daughter had been ill and I had set with my daughter a couple of nights before, which was legitimate. I mean it was a lot made out of that, but it was legitimate. She had a swimmer’s ear, which she frequently had problems with; and I was sleeping with her. And uh I got up and I, and I had taken the gun and I had shot my husband, and I closed the door, locked the door and closed the door and uh I went through a ruse that morning to prevent my daughter from going into the room. Uh I took her to school. I then uh, took the gun and the robe that I had on, and the that shoes I had on, the rubber gloves that I had on. Everything and I took and destroyed those. I don’t know the name of the place, I could probably tell you where they were thrown; probably not there anymore. I don’t know about the gun. But I, and I proceeded to go through uh the ruse of calling my husband at work uh, then uh his partner told me how to get into the door, which I really didn’t know how to get into the door. Uh I knew I had seen him use something to get into the door. I later found out they were allen wrenches but I used a a skewer from the bar-b-que and I went in the door and uh, then I called the police and feigned a hysterical uh call to the North Little Rock Police Department. Really the, the operator switched me but I guess because of the telephone number to the Sherwood and I guess somehow got switched over. I think I was, if I remember correctly I was trying to get a hold of the ambulance. And when I told her my husband had blood all over him then she called the operator and was switching things around and it got real confusing. And uh she called the North Little Rock Police Department, someone did; I think the operator. And they came out and it ensued from that. There was a lot of controversy about a car being out front of my housed that night. And a girl seen across the street. And when that was, when that came up that was news to me. There was no car involved, there was no else involved. It was solely on my own volition.
. . .
Dixon: And you took that and the, and the revolver and you discarded those, those items? Did you do this before taking your daughter to school or?
Orsini: No, I never left the house. I went down to the uh, to the garage. I wrapped everything up. The gun up in the gown, the gown and robe and stuff put it back in a plastic bag back behind my seat. Uh and went back up the bed room where my daughter was and uh, uh, when I got her up, I took, dropped her off at the school and then, I uh, she went to Central which I’m not sure if you’re familiar and then I...
Dixon: Central High in Little Rock.
Orsini: No, no, no the old Central, seventh grade school. That’s where she went. You know what I’m talking about, right? I don’t know what street it’s are over there.
Major Goodson: Central Junior High.
Orsini: Yeah, they were all in the seventh grade. All the seventh grade kids go there. I dropped her off there and gave her a doctors permit to go back to school. And uh, I discarded the uh, discarded the gun and the stuff. After that I left.
Dixon: Can you recall where you discarded these items?
Orsini: I don’t know the name of the street, but I can tell you, with you probably being familiar with North Little Rock, I can tell you the directions. I’m not real good with streets and stuff but uh I went the old back way, I don’t remember that highway uh I think it’s called the Old Jacksonville Highway. You’re back behind McAlmont; that way. Okay. You know how Wildwood and Sherwood; you come back up through to the Old Round Top Filling Station there? Okay you come up that road there, well there’s like swamps on both sides of that road okay...
Dixon: Trammel Road.
Orsini: Trammel Road. Okay, as I’m facing Sherwood there was a culvert or little bridge like thing, I threw the gun and the, and the screwdriver thing I used to break into the back door, I threw it over this way, on the, into that swamp. The gown and stuff I threw back up by a dump that I saw a bunch of stuff discarded.
. . .
Goodson: So what I need you to do is try to go through this. I know you don’t want to get into the reason for it, but I think we need to go into some motive about why you would do this to your husband. If we don’t get into that then so it, it doesn’t all fit. You know what I’m saying.
Orsini: And I know what you’re saying, and I’m not really wanting to cover up. But I just really think that for everybody’s sake that I don’t need to go into a motive. I’m responsible. And I take full responsibility for it.
Goodson: Well what concerns me is that you stole your husband’s gun two weeks prior. Does that mean that you were planning this at least two weeks prior too?
Orsini: Yeah I was, you know uh, course you’ve never done anything like this, and I hadn’t either prior to that point. And uh you know, you talk yourself into it, you talk yourself out of it, you talk yourself into it, you talk yourself out of it. And in essence that’s what I was doing.
Goodson: Can you give me some idea as to why you would do that to your husband and the father of your daughter.
Orsini: He wasn’t, he was my daughter’s stepfather;
Goodson: Oh okay I’m sorry.
Orsini: But none the less Ron did not deserve this. You know uh, I know it sounds contradictory but uh there was just a set of circumstances that lead up to it and uh they’re not really important today.
Goodson: Well uh, it is in order to making sense of when someone says I-I killed someone. You know the first question that you’re going to ask if someone told you that is; why? Is it financial, is it-is it...
Orsini: Yeah in-in part it was financial-in part it was financial. We had uh...
Goodson: Is it abuse? Is it uh...
Orsini: No he’s not abusive, no. He had uh, nor is he sexual, nor did he do anything to my daughter. No, no, no.
Goodson: That’s what I’m saying if you don’t-if you don’t come up with why, then you got this-all this out here that can come into something.
Orsini: Okay, okay. I understand. So you’re saying an omission is as bad as ...okay.
Goodson: Cause you’re leaving it out there for anybody to...
Orsini: Okay can I make brief toward this instead of just really putting it out there, cause all the details involved a lot of innocent people that really didn’t do anything wrong it’s involving them. You know I really just don’t want to get into a whole lot of. You know, you know that um, you know that there’s no way I can do this quietly. I can’t go crawl under a table and do this.
Goodson: I understand.
Orsini: You know it’s right, it’s just, and they’re still people that’s suffering behind this.
Goodson: Well I’m telling you I can appreciate your strength over this. Uh but again I think you do an injustice too...
Orsini: Primarily it was financial. We had gotten ourselves into a situation, which uh was primarily was my fault for uh, uh my husband had wanted to move back when were in our original house back when we were uh married and uh, if y’all remember when Carter was in office it was projected interest rates were going sky high and by the end of 1980 I remember it was 23 percent. My husband was in the contracting business, and air conditioning business so he uh, he knew kind of what was going to happen and he said you know we need to move. The house we used to live in doubled itself. But uh, you know and we got our loan quick. The problem that we had was that-that uh, all the other transactions that got involved with estate agent that wasn’t all on the up and up, and twisted some things around and uh which was my fault for letting her do that. And I-and I did it behind my husband’s back. To try and go head and take care of the situation to get into the house; which we both were happy with getting into the house. Uh, you know to make a long story short uh, Ron was killed so he wouldn’t catch me, and all those lies I had told him. You know I-I know that sounds uh really crazy, but you can, uh, but you care enough for somebody that you don’t want them to know really that there’s um, that um you weren’t honest with them.
Goodson: Was there ever any threats...
Orsini: No.
Goodson: Of harm or anything, something to...
Orsini: No, no, I look back now that wisdom comes after understanding. Well when you get wisdom and you get understanding you know uh-uh the wisest thing I would’ve been-would have been was sit down with him and work it out. Because at that time my income was increasing and uh there could have been a solution. But uh uh evidently there were areas I wasn’t mature in, and uh I was scared. And uh I had lied to him enough about the situations, that uh you know most people kill over affairs. Both of us were-neither one of us was having affairs. As you know I think that’s probably why the case was always so crazy. Because there was no clear cut motive for anybody to, I mean yes Sergeant Farley brought out the thing; even he didn’t get an accurate picture of what was uh...
Goodson: He brought out what?
Orsini: You know the financial situation, cause he traced it back and could see that you know-in all essence within a week we would have collapsed you know financially in the present state. That’s what my thinking was then, and uh had I been wise; which I was not um I could sit down with my husband, there could been some renegotiating but I wasn’t wise I was very stupid.
Goodson: So you’re saying that, that’s the reason that this all occurred on that night?
Orsini: Yeah.
Goodson: The night that you walked in there with the gun in your hand, was due to the fact; I don’t want to put word in your mouth but I’m trying to understand...
Orsini: I understand what you’re saying.
Goodson: But you didn’t want to be confronted with the facts of the lies that you had told him that...
Orsini: Exactly.
. . .
Goodson: On the 12th the night before, would you go over some of that for me. As to what your mind set was, and what your-I know that’s asking you to go back, but I think probably you’re pretty clear about what all you did that night?
Orsini: Uh, um my husband’s father was in the hospital dieing of cancer at that time and he had gone to, he’d eat supper. He had gone to the hospital and he had come back home and uh, uh, I’m not real clear it was just an ordinary evening. He and my daughter were talking about football and different stuff. They done talked about. Tiffany had been staying home like I said for a couple days, or a day or so and from school. And uh when we went to bed, and I, you know, and which I had done the night before, I had slept with Tiffany; which had nothing to do, you know I know that it looks like it does, but it had nothing to do with the crime the fact that I was in another bedroom. Um she had actually been watching the TV during the day and had been in our bedroom most of the day as I recall. And uh, you know I wrestled with it probably all the way up to the moment that I went in there.
Goodson: So y’all were in the bed in her room. She goes to sleep and at some point...
Orsini: And she wasn’t sedated. They made comments at the trial that she was sedated. I sedated her to do...
Goodson: Was she on medications from the illness?
Orsini: I don’t recall that she was. If she was it wasn’t a sedative; it would have been an antibiotic or something. I don’t really recall. The only thing that she ever took and she didn’t have any at that time as I recall uh was something for her menstrual cramps. But uh...
Goodson: So you and her are there in the bedroom, and is that where you made your decision to go...
Orsini: To be perfectly honest I think I made the decision the second before I did it, you know, I mean the actual decision. You know, like I said, you wrestle with it...
Goodson: Right.
Orsini: You go back and forth.
. . .
Goodson: So when you left the room you had not made the decision to do that then you think, or do you think you decided to do it?
Orsini: You know, I think that there was other night that I had pondered this. You know within a few week period of time and I think until the moment that it actually happened that is was one-it was just an indecisive. Cause it was-it was many days that I wanted to sit down and tell him the truth.
. . .
Goodson: So this was just one of those nights out of those few nights that you just did it. Okay, let me just-and again I hate to ask you details but I have to get details in order to again, there’s a lot of stuff in the paper, there’s a lot, there’s a book, one or two I think out on this thing. I’m trying to have you remember something that maybe that you haven’t told anybody or that someone else didn’t know. That we could find out that occurred that night.
Orsini: Well, other than that fact that I didn’t know about a jacked-up car that a little girl saw. I didn’t hear it or see it. and I was up...
Goodson: That’s the thing that law enforcement had come up with...
Orsini: Yeah well it stands that I never knew. I never even, I was up walking around the house and I never saw a car out there, so whether this little girl made this up, whether it actually happened. I do know that once that the gun went off, dogs all the around the area started barking.
Goodson: That’s what I’m talking about.
Orsini: Yeah, dog’s started barking but...
Goodson: Let me tell you a little bit about what you just saying...
Orsini: And my daughter, when I went back in the room, my daughter raised up. You know after in fact, you know, in fact I do remember that. My daughter, I had gotten back in bed and my daughter raised up and I pretended to be asleep and she climbed over, looked out the window then she got back in bed.
Goodson: After you, after you had shot the-that’s what I’m trying to do...
Orsini: But she thought I was asleep. She did not know that I was awake.
Goodson: Okay, so...
Orsini: I did not disturb her.
. . .
Dixon: When you fired the gun, what did you do to prepare it to fire?
Orsini: I don’t understand what that means.
Dixon: Did you actually aim it at the back of his head...
Orsini: Yes.
Dixon: Or did you-did you touch the back of his head with it at any time.
Orsini: No, I did not touch, no.
Dixon: Did you shoot directly into him...
Orsini: Yes.
Dixon: Or through the pillow or bed sheets or anything or...?
Orsini: No. It was directly into him.
Dixon: Okay. And this was a revolver uh, how did you fire it.
Orsini: I pulled the trigger.
Dixon: You just merely squeezed the trigger.
Orsini: Um huh.
Dixon: Okay, now it has a hammer, so did you pull the hammer back on it with your thumb or did you just...
Orsini: I wouldn’t have known to do that.
. . .
Orsini: And the sound of the gun shot was deafening to me, you know. But if I had not been asleep, I mean if I had not been awake trust me I wouldn’t of heard the gun shot. I just have that kind of sleep pattern and so does she. Cause in fact that night with that other thing that you came to the house with that. That gun went off and I don’t know if you recall it; we like to have never gotten Tiffany up. Tiffany was in the room and did not wake up. She was sound asleep and the door was there. So you know the position where the bedroom is at the top of the stairs. So yeah I have about a four hour sleep pattern. I have a real, a real strong sleep pattern.
. . .
Goodson: And what time did your daughter get up?
Orsini: Uh from 21 years ago I couldn’t honestly tell you.
Goodson: But she was going to school that day.
Orsini: She was going to school it was on Thursday...Thursday the 12th.
Goodson: So she got up, your husband’s still in bed. Y’all are both aware of that right? I mean you made some excuses for him still...
Orsini: No I did not make no, no, the door was locked and um, I had gotten up, and if uh, if I recall Tiffany wanted to get in the room for some reason I don’t remember what it was-what the reason uh for the sake of being honest I don’t remember what the reason was but she wanted to get in the room. And I told her the door was locked and leave it alone, that I would call Daddy and find out where the key was and so she left it alone.
Goodson: So she, she assumed that your husband had already left to go to work.
Orsini: The only suspicion is when we pulled out of the driveway, there was his truck sitting in the driveway. And uh, you this is one of things when you go to trial and expect everybody to tell the truth and about half the witnesses got there told the story that wasn’t true and you’re wondering why people, you’re, you’re the bad guy why aren’t they telling the truth. But several times my husband’s partner Vernon had picked my husband up. My husband had a real big engine in that truck. And there was times it wouldn’t turn over and he had to have it started, now since we moved in that house in September he’d never been there. But several time we lived in Emerald Garden, Vernon would come by and get Ron until they could do something with the starter he had problems with that wouldn’t, he’d hit a dead spot, I don’t remember all the circumstances.
Goodson: So your daughter questioned that when y’all got ready to leave?
Orsini: She said you know, what’s Daddy’s truck doing there or something to that effect. And I said well Vernon probably came and got him. And so she being a 14 year old, and had a pretty innocent mind, pretty sheltered mind at that time didn’t have any suspicions.
. . .
Goodson: Okay now when did you do, use the screwdriver?
Orsini: Uh, when I left the upstairs I went back-downstairs, I guess my mind was racing, I don’t remember my mindset, I don’t think I had one that night except insanity. Uh you know I got the screwdriver, if I recall the screwdriver was just lying there, uh...
Goodson: When you put the stuff in the car?
Orsini: I saw the screwdriver, yes, the best I can remember I saw the screwdriver and I thought well I’m gonna go over here and act like I’m opening this door, and then at the door there was already marks on the door, well it took me more, well it wasn’t marks it was like a mark or two, and it took me more tries to do what I’d seen my husband do real easily a day or two before.
. . .
Dixon: I think what he is asking you is did you reveal this to anyone that you know? A close friend, relative?
Orsini: Oh no no,
Dixon: Co-worker?
Orsini: The only person um, no, no. Absolutely not. The only person, I told my mother right before she died. My mother was ill and my mother died in 1999 and I told her the truth cause I thought she deserved the truth. And my mother said Mary please don’t make things any worse for the family than what they already are. And so I told her then that I needed to take care of it. That it needed to be resolved. Uh and uh, when I got up here there were a lot of things that just weighed on me, constantly. And I talked to the chaplain about it and uh we had a tremendous chaplain and he said he would help me resolve it. That’s when Wackenhut still had us up here. And he went to the warden. Uh I believe twice, and...
. . .
Goodson: With your story and what evidence and all that. Uh, what, now probably what I want to hear now is why you decided after 21 years to um to tell the truth of the matter.
Orsini: Um, well I tried to since 1996. You know ’96 was first told my mother and uh she asked me again not to say anything and in ’99 I talked to her about it right before she died and she begged me not to do it. And my daughter is successful, she’s married, and she’s living away from Arka, away from Little Rock. And um uh, you know my family’s suffered a lot and their families suffered a lot. And my mother-in-law died last year without me resolving this with her, and I was crazy about my mother-in-law.
Goodson: Is that Ron’s mother?
Orsini: Uh, huh. She died a year ago January, or this January. Maybe it was last January; it hasn’t been very long that she died. And uh, you know you just have to make things right.
Goodson: It’s a burden to carry ain’t it?
Orsini: You have to make things right.
. . .
Goodson: Why-what made you decide to send one to Chris Piazza?
Orsini: You know why-you probably wouldn’t believe me if I told you. Can I turn the tape off a minute or two I really don’t want...
Goodson: I’d rather you-I’d rather you, I’d rather you be upfront on all it. Cause if we turn it off it will look we...
Orsini: I’m being upfront. It’s just that a lot of people might misinterpret what I’m gonna say. Anytime that I would pray the Lord just kept having heaviness on my heart about this. I was praying and you know Chris Piazza just came to my mind. And I wrestled with it a couple of days and wrote the letter out a couple of days, couple of times. You know I just became grateful for him, for um for pursuing it. Not letting me get by and diligently pursuing the initial case and not being afraid to let me get-to go after doing his job.
Goodson: He’s a well respected...
Orsini: Yeah and even though during the time that there was false evidence used at the trial and I, and I wrestled through the court because there was a lot of false evidence used at my trial to convict me. They even used a lot of lies. What you know God is just, and he’s in Proverbs it says, “The sense-the sentence is just in the hands of the king.” And that means when the judge gives you a sentence it’s just; regardless of what that sentence is. And so I knew that it looked like the time he was promoting a career and all that stuff and that’s how your mind can think. But he was really-he was representing the state of Arkansas justly. So I uh, I wrote him a letter and I let a friend of mine who was here, who-I’ve openly confessed this here in prison.
. . .
Goodson: Let me-let me ask you-again I wanna impress on you, if this comes out; which probably will, there maybe some people out there if you did tell anybody, I’m not saying you did, cause you’re saying you didn’t tell anybody except your mother and people from in here in the last year. But if there’s anyone that you can think of that you did tell and then they may come forward. I don’t know if they will, but if they don’t...
Orsini: No I never...
Goodson: I could cause them it be better for them to come forward. Uh, but now let’s get it, cause I’d hate for somebody to sit out there going I know about this, is she gone tell on me or what an so on. It’s best to them and for you, and all this that we get it all out so if there’s anybody out there that you-that you talked to either prior to...
Orsini: No I was never honest with my lawyers. I was never-the lawyers never knew it, from Mr. MacArthur, to Lesenberry, Carpenter, to Donalan, to Adam and so on.
. . .
Dixon: In the occurrence, did you do anything or is there any one little piece of evidence that maybe only the police would know about and you know about. In other words it didn’t come out in any of these books, newspaper articles or TV.
Orsini: Oh yeah there was lots of things, there were a lot, and I think that was always initially my basis of false hope uh, uh there was a lot of erroneous evidence. For instance uh...
Dixon: Well can you give me an example or two of what was true evidence that you knew about?
Orsini: I’m not-I’m not understanding what you mean; because even the true evidence came out, you know what i’m saying, the true evidence came out. It just had a slant to it. You know that was...
Dixon: You’re saying it was misrepresented or misread?
. . .
Orsini: Well for one thing I knew the exact time that it occurred. It occurred, if I’m not mistaken at 1:05 in the morning. Cause I remember seeing a clock in the house and thinking that came out in trial it was a neighbor that said he she heard a bump at 11 something. It was things like that I always wondered where did they get that, you know. And then Dr. Malak came up with this far fetched theory, you know he came out with stuff I went to him one time, he called me to his office and asked me questions and some how we got on the subject of poisoning and we started talking about poisoning and when he testified he said I asked how to kill with arsenic poison and they wouldn’t-I wouldn’t even know anything about that. He got on the subject about how to autopsy people with I mean, I use to wonder.
. . .
Goodson: Here’s the thing, that Mary Lee Orsini knows that nobody else knows is where the gun is.
Orsini: Exactly, Yeah exactly, I know...
Goodson: Okay.
Orsini: No one’s ever been told. I never even told my mother that.
Goodson: Right. So we’re gonna go and see if we can locate that. If-if that’s possible then we can say that there’s no other motive for her telling the truth on this except what she says that she wants it all cleared up.
Orsini: Exactly.
Goodson: Because we got the gun where she says it happened.
Orsini: It’s a possibility that it will still be there, after all this time.
. . .
Goodson: Let me ask you one more time; because I think this is going to be a big thing. I mean I know you don’t want to get into a lot of details of it, but the motive of your reason behind that. And I’d like for you to explain that again to me. Cause I think that’s going to be a point where they’re either going to have to accept your response or they’re going to go out here and look for all the things. So I want to make it clear.
Orsini: There was nothing else that essentially. It was just that uh there was some misguidance by some people that directed me in the path of finances; I got in over my head and...
Goodson: What are some examples of what they would be?
Orsini: Uh, agreeing to uh, to doing different types of mortgages, that this would be paid off and I was in over my head I didn’t understand what they were really doing and then my husband was at a point with his business. He was saying take care of it, take care of it. He wasn’t really-really involved in all of and he expected me to just come home with the bill of sale. You know what I’m saying. He wanted it out of his hair. You know how you men are he didn’t like a lot of details you just want the woman to go clean up the mess, give it to me, I see policemen are different, y’all wanna hear all the details.
Goodson: I like details.
Dixon: (Laughs)
Orsini: Most men they wanna-they wanna know right here. At home, I bet you’re not detailed oriented you want to know two or three words. So that’s the way men are and that’s the way he operated one or two words it was clear it was over with it was solved. And I listened to some advice and had a convoluted, tangled up real estate mess. That I-that I ended up being messed up over.
Update
Mary Lee Orsini died at age 55
William C. McArthur died in 2009
Hall stated that, after the bombing failed to kill Mrs. McArthur, he agreed with appellant to a contract murder of the victim for $ 25,000 to be paid by the victim's husband, the trigger to be pulled by Larry McClendon. Appellant gave him $ 325 for expenses. Hall testified that appellant agreed to obtain the murder weapon. Circumstantial evidence corroborated Hall's testimony that the murder weapon was obtained by appellant. A ballistics expert testified that the three bullets were fired from a short barreled revolver and were a unique Federal type bullet manufactured between 1956 and 1975. Dr. Wulz, a witness for appellant, stated that he and appellant had been engaged in a continuing romantic relationship for several years and that he had owned an eleven or twelve year old .38 caliber revolver. He further testified that he discovered the pistol was missing about a week prior to the murder. The ballistics expert testified that the three bullets retrieved from the crime [***11] scene were the same type as those in a box of shells which Wulz had kept at home and had delivered to the prosecutor Hall further testified that appellant had devised the scheme for him and Larry McClendon to pose as a florist delivery service and that appellant had made the florist delivery sign. Hall testified that on the day of the murder he and McClendon went to Phillips Wrecker Service in North Little Rock to get the florist delivery sign out of a car that he had been driving. An employee of the wrecker service corroborated this fact. Hall testified that on the day of the murder he purchased a flower arrangement and removed the license plate from McClendon's car before putting the floral delivery sign in the car window. An employee of Leroy's Florist at Cantrell and Kavanaugh in Little Rock testified that she prepared the flower arrangement found at the [*354] murder scene. Before Hall picked up the flower arrangement, he telephoned appellant, and appellant telephoned the victim's residence to make sure she was home. Evidence was introduced to corroborate Hall's testimony that appellant telephoned the victim the afternoon of the murder. The record reflects that a [***12] tracing device, or trap, along with a microcassette tape recorder, had been placed on the McArthur telephone. A transcription of the telephone tape recovered from the home the day of the murder established that a telephone call made to the victim at 1:59 p.m. had been made from appellant's residence. The caller asked for "Mama." Two witnesses identified the voice of the caller as the voice of appellant. This corroborated Hall's testimony that appellant telephoned the victim the afternoon of the murder to determine if she was home. Soon after the telephone call to appellant's home, appellant drove by Hall and McClendon on her way to a pre-arranged appointment with her attorney, Bill McArthur, the victim's husband. Two witnesses from the McArthur law firm testified appellant had made an appointment for 4:00 that afternoon. As she passed Hall and McClendon, she got a go ahead sign from Hall. After the murder, Hall threw the gun and florist sign in the Arkansas River. He then telephoned appellant who told him she had been unable to get the payoff money that day. Within a few days after the murder, appellant told Larry Burge, an acquaintance, that she had received an anonymous [***13] telephone [**250] tip that Larry McClendon had killed Alice McArthur. At appellant's request, Burge relayed this information anonymously to the sheriff, who verified receiving it. The next day appellant again contacted Burge, telling him she had received more information about the murder and had made notes on this information. The notes were written down on yellow pieces of paper. At appellant's request Burge agreed to pose as an anonymous caller and relate to her the information she had written down. Burge made the call, naming McClendon as the man who fired the gun and stating that McClendon had been seen with a white man earlier in the day. Appellant tape recorded this message and, on the pretext of having received the call from an anonymous source, took the tape to the sheriff. At trial [*355] Burge identified the yellow pages as the notes written in appellant's handwriting and given to him by her for the purpose of making his call. These three yellow pages were removed from appellant's person the night she was arrested. Since the staged anonymous call, based on notes prepared by appellant, was information only a person involved in the murder would know, this [***14] evidence corroborated Hall's testimony that appellant conspired with him to commit murder.
Excerpts from Mary Lee Orsini transcript
The following is a series of excerpts from a July 17 interview between Mary Lee Orsini and Sgt. Jim Dixon and Major Jackie Goodson of the Pulaski County sheriff’s office. The transcript was edited only for basic spelling.
Sergeant Dixon: Could we start with uh, when you got up the morning, or the date of the occurrence.
Mary Lee Orsini: Okay, okay. Well the crime was actually committed uh a little bit after one o’clock in the morning on March the twelfth. Uh I had uh, stolen my husband’s gun some weeks before. Uh I had secreted it in the house and uh um that that morning uh, I got up and uh, I went into the bedroom. My daughter had been ill and I had set with my daughter a couple of nights before, which was legitimate. I mean it was a lot made out of that, but it was legitimate. She had a swimmer’s ear, which she frequently had problems with; and I was sleeping with her. And uh I got up and I, and I had taken the gun and I had shot my husband, and I closed the door, locked the door and closed the door and uh I went through a ruse that morning to prevent my daughter from going into the room. Uh I took her to school. I then uh, took the gun and the robe that I had on, and the that shoes I had on, the rubber gloves that I had on. Everything and I took and destroyed those. I don’t know the name of the place, I could probably tell you where they were thrown; probably not there anymore. I don’t know about the gun. But I, and I proceeded to go through uh the ruse of calling my husband at work uh, then uh his partner told me how to get into the door, which I really didn’t know how to get into the door. Uh I knew I had seen him use something to get into the door. I later found out they were allen wrenches but I used a a skewer from the bar-b-que and I went in the door and uh, then I called the police and feigned a hysterical uh call to the North Little Rock Police Department. Really the, the operator switched me but I guess because of the telephone number to the Sherwood and I guess somehow got switched over. I think I was, if I remember correctly I was trying to get a hold of the ambulance. And when I told her my husband had blood all over him then she called the operator and was switching things around and it got real confusing. And uh she called the North Little Rock Police Department, someone did; I think the operator. And they came out and it ensued from that. There was a lot of controversy about a car being out front of my housed that night. And a girl seen across the street. And when that was, when that came up that was news to me. There was no car involved, there was no else involved. It was solely on my own volition.
. . .
Dixon: And you took that and the, and the revolver and you discarded those, those items? Did you do this before taking your daughter to school or?
Orsini: No, I never left the house. I went down to the uh, to the garage. I wrapped everything up. The gun up in the gown, the gown and robe and stuff put it back in a plastic bag back behind my seat. Uh and went back up the bed room where my daughter was and uh, uh, when I got her up, I took, dropped her off at the school and then, I uh, she went to Central which I’m not sure if you’re familiar and then I...
Dixon: Central High in Little Rock.
Orsini: No, no, no the old Central, seventh grade school. That’s where she went. You know what I’m talking about, right? I don’t know what street it’s are over there.
Major Goodson: Central Junior High.
Orsini: Yeah, they were all in the seventh grade. All the seventh grade kids go there. I dropped her off there and gave her a doctors permit to go back to school. And uh, I discarded the uh, discarded the gun and the stuff. After that I left.
Dixon: Can you recall where you discarded these items?
Orsini: I don’t know the name of the street, but I can tell you, with you probably being familiar with North Little Rock, I can tell you the directions. I’m not real good with streets and stuff but uh I went the old back way, I don’t remember that highway uh I think it’s called the Old Jacksonville Highway. You’re back behind McAlmont; that way. Okay. You know how Wildwood and Sherwood; you come back up through to the Old Round Top Filling Station there? Okay you come up that road there, well there’s like swamps on both sides of that road okay...
Dixon: Trammel Road.
Orsini: Trammel Road. Okay, as I’m facing Sherwood there was a culvert or little bridge like thing, I threw the gun and the, and the screwdriver thing I used to break into the back door, I threw it over this way, on the, into that swamp. The gown and stuff I threw back up by a dump that I saw a bunch of stuff discarded.
. . .
Goodson: So what I need you to do is try to go through this. I know you don’t want to get into the reason for it, but I think we need to go into some motive about why you would do this to your husband. If we don’t get into that then so it, it doesn’t all fit. You know what I’m saying.
Orsini: And I know what you’re saying, and I’m not really wanting to cover up. But I just really think that for everybody’s sake that I don’t need to go into a motive. I’m responsible. And I take full responsibility for it.
Goodson: Well what concerns me is that you stole your husband’s gun two weeks prior. Does that mean that you were planning this at least two weeks prior too?
Orsini: Yeah I was, you know uh, course you’ve never done anything like this, and I hadn’t either prior to that point. And uh you know, you talk yourself into it, you talk yourself out of it, you talk yourself into it, you talk yourself out of it. And in essence that’s what I was doing.
Goodson: Can you give me some idea as to why you would do that to your husband and the father of your daughter.
Orsini: He wasn’t, he was my daughter’s stepfather;
Goodson: Oh okay I’m sorry.
Orsini: But none the less Ron did not deserve this. You know uh, I know it sounds contradictory but uh there was just a set of circumstances that lead up to it and uh they’re not really important today.
Goodson: Well uh, it is in order to making sense of when someone says I-I killed someone. You know the first question that you’re going to ask if someone told you that is; why? Is it financial, is it-is it...
Orsini: Yeah in-in part it was financial-in part it was financial. We had uh...
Goodson: Is it abuse? Is it uh...
Orsini: No he’s not abusive, no. He had uh, nor is he sexual, nor did he do anything to my daughter. No, no, no.
Goodson: That’s what I’m saying if you don’t-if you don’t come up with why, then you got this-all this out here that can come into something.
Orsini: Okay, okay. I understand. So you’re saying an omission is as bad as ...okay.
Goodson: Cause you’re leaving it out there for anybody to...
Orsini: Okay can I make brief toward this instead of just really putting it out there, cause all the details involved a lot of innocent people that really didn’t do anything wrong it’s involving them. You know I really just don’t want to get into a whole lot of. You know, you know that um, you know that there’s no way I can do this quietly. I can’t go crawl under a table and do this.
Goodson: I understand.
Orsini: You know it’s right, it’s just, and they’re still people that’s suffering behind this.
Goodson: Well I’m telling you I can appreciate your strength over this. Uh but again I think you do an injustice too...
Orsini: Primarily it was financial. We had gotten ourselves into a situation, which uh was primarily was my fault for uh, uh my husband had wanted to move back when were in our original house back when we were uh married and uh, if y’all remember when Carter was in office it was projected interest rates were going sky high and by the end of 1980 I remember it was 23 percent. My husband was in the contracting business, and air conditioning business so he uh, he knew kind of what was going to happen and he said you know we need to move. The house we used to live in doubled itself. But uh, you know and we got our loan quick. The problem that we had was that-that uh, all the other transactions that got involved with estate agent that wasn’t all on the up and up, and twisted some things around and uh which was my fault for letting her do that. And I-and I did it behind my husband’s back. To try and go head and take care of the situation to get into the house; which we both were happy with getting into the house. Uh, you know to make a long story short uh, Ron was killed so he wouldn’t catch me, and all those lies I had told him. You know I-I know that sounds uh really crazy, but you can, uh, but you care enough for somebody that you don’t want them to know really that there’s um, that um you weren’t honest with them.
Goodson: Was there ever any threats...
Orsini: No.
Goodson: Of harm or anything, something to...
Orsini: No, no, I look back now that wisdom comes after understanding. Well when you get wisdom and you get understanding you know uh-uh the wisest thing I would’ve been-would have been was sit down with him and work it out. Because at that time my income was increasing and uh there could have been a solution. But uh uh evidently there were areas I wasn’t mature in, and uh I was scared. And uh I had lied to him enough about the situations, that uh you know most people kill over affairs. Both of us were-neither one of us was having affairs. As you know I think that’s probably why the case was always so crazy. Because there was no clear cut motive for anybody to, I mean yes Sergeant Farley brought out the thing; even he didn’t get an accurate picture of what was uh...
Goodson: He brought out what?
Orsini: You know the financial situation, cause he traced it back and could see that you know-in all essence within a week we would have collapsed you know financially in the present state. That’s what my thinking was then, and uh had I been wise; which I was not um I could sit down with my husband, there could been some renegotiating but I wasn’t wise I was very stupid.
Goodson: So you’re saying that, that’s the reason that this all occurred on that night?
Orsini: Yeah.
Goodson: The night that you walked in there with the gun in your hand, was due to the fact; I don’t want to put word in your mouth but I’m trying to understand...
Orsini: I understand what you’re saying.
Goodson: But you didn’t want to be confronted with the facts of the lies that you had told him that...
Orsini: Exactly.
. . .
Goodson: On the 12th the night before, would you go over some of that for me. As to what your mind set was, and what your-I know that’s asking you to go back, but I think probably you’re pretty clear about what all you did that night?
Orsini: Uh, um my husband’s father was in the hospital dieing of cancer at that time and he had gone to, he’d eat supper. He had gone to the hospital and he had come back home and uh, uh, I’m not real clear it was just an ordinary evening. He and my daughter were talking about football and different stuff. They done talked about. Tiffany had been staying home like I said for a couple days, or a day or so and from school. And uh when we went to bed, and I, you know, and which I had done the night before, I had slept with Tiffany; which had nothing to do, you know I know that it looks like it does, but it had nothing to do with the crime the fact that I was in another bedroom. Um she had actually been watching the TV during the day and had been in our bedroom most of the day as I recall. And uh, you know I wrestled with it probably all the way up to the moment that I went in there.
Goodson: So y’all were in the bed in her room. She goes to sleep and at some point...
Orsini: And she wasn’t sedated. They made comments at the trial that she was sedated. I sedated her to do...
Goodson: Was she on medications from the illness?
Orsini: I don’t recall that she was. If she was it wasn’t a sedative; it would have been an antibiotic or something. I don’t really recall. The only thing that she ever took and she didn’t have any at that time as I recall uh was something for her menstrual cramps. But uh...
Goodson: So you and her are there in the bedroom, and is that where you made your decision to go...
Orsini: To be perfectly honest I think I made the decision the second before I did it, you know, I mean the actual decision. You know, like I said, you wrestle with it...
Goodson: Right.
Orsini: You go back and forth.
. . .
Goodson: So when you left the room you had not made the decision to do that then you think, or do you think you decided to do it?
Orsini: You know, I think that there was other night that I had pondered this. You know within a few week period of time and I think until the moment that it actually happened that is was one-it was just an indecisive. Cause it was-it was many days that I wanted to sit down and tell him the truth.
. . .
Goodson: So this was just one of those nights out of those few nights that you just did it. Okay, let me just-and again I hate to ask you details but I have to get details in order to again, there’s a lot of stuff in the paper, there’s a lot, there’s a book, one or two I think out on this thing. I’m trying to have you remember something that maybe that you haven’t told anybody or that someone else didn’t know. That we could find out that occurred that night.
Orsini: Well, other than that fact that I didn’t know about a jacked-up car that a little girl saw. I didn’t hear it or see it. and I was up...
Goodson: That’s the thing that law enforcement had come up with...
Orsini: Yeah well it stands that I never knew. I never even, I was up walking around the house and I never saw a car out there, so whether this little girl made this up, whether it actually happened. I do know that once that the gun went off, dogs all the around the area started barking.
Goodson: That’s what I’m talking about.
Orsini: Yeah, dog’s started barking but...
Goodson: Let me tell you a little bit about what you just saying...
Orsini: And my daughter, when I went back in the room, my daughter raised up. You know after in fact, you know, in fact I do remember that. My daughter, I had gotten back in bed and my daughter raised up and I pretended to be asleep and she climbed over, looked out the window then she got back in bed.
Goodson: After you, after you had shot the-that’s what I’m trying to do...
Orsini: But she thought I was asleep. She did not know that I was awake.
Goodson: Okay, so...
Orsini: I did not disturb her.
. . .
Dixon: When you fired the gun, what did you do to prepare it to fire?
Orsini: I don’t understand what that means.
Dixon: Did you actually aim it at the back of his head...
Orsini: Yes.
Dixon: Or did you-did you touch the back of his head with it at any time.
Orsini: No, I did not touch, no.
Dixon: Did you shoot directly into him...
Orsini: Yes.
Dixon: Or through the pillow or bed sheets or anything or...?
Orsini: No. It was directly into him.
Dixon: Okay. And this was a revolver uh, how did you fire it.
Orsini: I pulled the trigger.
Dixon: You just merely squeezed the trigger.
Orsini: Um huh.
Dixon: Okay, now it has a hammer, so did you pull the hammer back on it with your thumb or did you just...
Orsini: I wouldn’t have known to do that.
. . .
Orsini: And the sound of the gun shot was deafening to me, you know. But if I had not been asleep, I mean if I had not been awake trust me I wouldn’t of heard the gun shot. I just have that kind of sleep pattern and so does she. Cause in fact that night with that other thing that you came to the house with that. That gun went off and I don’t know if you recall it; we like to have never gotten Tiffany up. Tiffany was in the room and did not wake up. She was sound asleep and the door was there. So you know the position where the bedroom is at the top of the stairs. So yeah I have about a four hour sleep pattern. I have a real, a real strong sleep pattern.
. . .
Goodson: And what time did your daughter get up?
Orsini: Uh from 21 years ago I couldn’t honestly tell you.
Goodson: But she was going to school that day.
Orsini: She was going to school it was on Thursday...Thursday the 12th.
Goodson: So she got up, your husband’s still in bed. Y’all are both aware of that right? I mean you made some excuses for him still...
Orsini: No I did not make no, no, the door was locked and um, I had gotten up, and if uh, if I recall Tiffany wanted to get in the room for some reason I don’t remember what it was-what the reason uh for the sake of being honest I don’t remember what the reason was but she wanted to get in the room. And I told her the door was locked and leave it alone, that I would call Daddy and find out where the key was and so she left it alone.
Goodson: So she, she assumed that your husband had already left to go to work.
Orsini: The only suspicion is when we pulled out of the driveway, there was his truck sitting in the driveway. And uh, you this is one of things when you go to trial and expect everybody to tell the truth and about half the witnesses got there told the story that wasn’t true and you’re wondering why people, you’re, you’re the bad guy why aren’t they telling the truth. But several times my husband’s partner Vernon had picked my husband up. My husband had a real big engine in that truck. And there was times it wouldn’t turn over and he had to have it started, now since we moved in that house in September he’d never been there. But several time we lived in Emerald Garden, Vernon would come by and get Ron until they could do something with the starter he had problems with that wouldn’t, he’d hit a dead spot, I don’t remember all the circumstances.
Goodson: So your daughter questioned that when y’all got ready to leave?
Orsini: She said you know, what’s Daddy’s truck doing there or something to that effect. And I said well Vernon probably came and got him. And so she being a 14 year old, and had a pretty innocent mind, pretty sheltered mind at that time didn’t have any suspicions.
. . .
Goodson: Okay now when did you do, use the screwdriver?
Orsini: Uh, when I left the upstairs I went back-downstairs, I guess my mind was racing, I don’t remember my mindset, I don’t think I had one that night except insanity. Uh you know I got the screwdriver, if I recall the screwdriver was just lying there, uh...
Goodson: When you put the stuff in the car?
Orsini: I saw the screwdriver, yes, the best I can remember I saw the screwdriver and I thought well I’m gonna go over here and act like I’m opening this door, and then at the door there was already marks on the door, well it took me more, well it wasn’t marks it was like a mark or two, and it took me more tries to do what I’d seen my husband do real easily a day or two before.
. . .
Dixon: I think what he is asking you is did you reveal this to anyone that you know? A close friend, relative?
Orsini: Oh no no,
Dixon: Co-worker?
Orsini: The only person um, no, no. Absolutely not. The only person, I told my mother right before she died. My mother was ill and my mother died in 1999 and I told her the truth cause I thought she deserved the truth. And my mother said Mary please don’t make things any worse for the family than what they already are. And so I told her then that I needed to take care of it. That it needed to be resolved. Uh and uh, when I got up here there were a lot of things that just weighed on me, constantly. And I talked to the chaplain about it and uh we had a tremendous chaplain and he said he would help me resolve it. That’s when Wackenhut still had us up here. And he went to the warden. Uh I believe twice, and...
. . .
Goodson: With your story and what evidence and all that. Uh, what, now probably what I want to hear now is why you decided after 21 years to um to tell the truth of the matter.
Orsini: Um, well I tried to since 1996. You know ’96 was first told my mother and uh she asked me again not to say anything and in ’99 I talked to her about it right before she died and she begged me not to do it. And my daughter is successful, she’s married, and she’s living away from Arka, away from Little Rock. And um uh, you know my family’s suffered a lot and their families suffered a lot. And my mother-in-law died last year without me resolving this with her, and I was crazy about my mother-in-law.
Goodson: Is that Ron’s mother?
Orsini: Uh, huh. She died a year ago January, or this January. Maybe it was last January; it hasn’t been very long that she died. And uh, you know you just have to make things right.
Goodson: It’s a burden to carry ain’t it?
Orsini: You have to make things right.
. . .
Goodson: Why-what made you decide to send one to Chris Piazza?
Orsini: You know why-you probably wouldn’t believe me if I told you. Can I turn the tape off a minute or two I really don’t want...
Goodson: I’d rather you-I’d rather you, I’d rather you be upfront on all it. Cause if we turn it off it will look we...
Orsini: I’m being upfront. It’s just that a lot of people might misinterpret what I’m gonna say. Anytime that I would pray the Lord just kept having heaviness on my heart about this. I was praying and you know Chris Piazza just came to my mind. And I wrestled with it a couple of days and wrote the letter out a couple of days, couple of times. You know I just became grateful for him, for um for pursuing it. Not letting me get by and diligently pursuing the initial case and not being afraid to let me get-to go after doing his job.
Goodson: He’s a well respected...
Orsini: Yeah and even though during the time that there was false evidence used at the trial and I, and I wrestled through the court because there was a lot of false evidence used at my trial to convict me. They even used a lot of lies. What you know God is just, and he’s in Proverbs it says, “The sense-the sentence is just in the hands of the king.” And that means when the judge gives you a sentence it’s just; regardless of what that sentence is. And so I knew that it looked like the time he was promoting a career and all that stuff and that’s how your mind can think. But he was really-he was representing the state of Arkansas justly. So I uh, I wrote him a letter and I let a friend of mine who was here, who-I’ve openly confessed this here in prison.
. . .
Goodson: Let me-let me ask you-again I wanna impress on you, if this comes out; which probably will, there maybe some people out there if you did tell anybody, I’m not saying you did, cause you’re saying you didn’t tell anybody except your mother and people from in here in the last year. But if there’s anyone that you can think of that you did tell and then they may come forward. I don’t know if they will, but if they don’t...
Orsini: No I never...
Goodson: I could cause them it be better for them to come forward. Uh, but now let’s get it, cause I’d hate for somebody to sit out there going I know about this, is she gone tell on me or what an so on. It’s best to them and for you, and all this that we get it all out so if there’s anybody out there that you-that you talked to either prior to...
Orsini: No I was never honest with my lawyers. I was never-the lawyers never knew it, from Mr. MacArthur, to Lesenberry, Carpenter, to Donalan, to Adam and so on.
. . .
Dixon: In the occurrence, did you do anything or is there any one little piece of evidence that maybe only the police would know about and you know about. In other words it didn’t come out in any of these books, newspaper articles or TV.
Orsini: Oh yeah there was lots of things, there were a lot, and I think that was always initially my basis of false hope uh, uh there was a lot of erroneous evidence. For instance uh...
Dixon: Well can you give me an example or two of what was true evidence that you knew about?
Orsini: I’m not-I’m not understanding what you mean; because even the true evidence came out, you know what i’m saying, the true evidence came out. It just had a slant to it. You know that was...
Dixon: You’re saying it was misrepresented or misread?
. . .
Orsini: Well for one thing I knew the exact time that it occurred. It occurred, if I’m not mistaken at 1:05 in the morning. Cause I remember seeing a clock in the house and thinking that came out in trial it was a neighbor that said he she heard a bump at 11 something. It was things like that I always wondered where did they get that, you know. And then Dr. Malak came up with this far fetched theory, you know he came out with stuff I went to him one time, he called me to his office and asked me questions and some how we got on the subject of poisoning and we started talking about poisoning and when he testified he said I asked how to kill with arsenic poison and they wouldn’t-I wouldn’t even know anything about that. He got on the subject about how to autopsy people with I mean, I use to wonder.
. . .
Goodson: Here’s the thing, that Mary Lee Orsini knows that nobody else knows is where the gun is.
Orsini: Exactly, Yeah exactly, I know...
Goodson: Okay.
Orsini: No one’s ever been told. I never even told my mother that.
Goodson: Right. So we’re gonna go and see if we can locate that. If-if that’s possible then we can say that there’s no other motive for her telling the truth on this except what she says that she wants it all cleared up.
Orsini: Exactly.
Goodson: Because we got the gun where she says it happened.
Orsini: It’s a possibility that it will still be there, after all this time.
. . .
Goodson: Let me ask you one more time; because I think this is going to be a big thing. I mean I know you don’t want to get into a lot of details of it, but the motive of your reason behind that. And I’d like for you to explain that again to me. Cause I think that’s going to be a point where they’re either going to have to accept your response or they’re going to go out here and look for all the things. So I want to make it clear.
Orsini: There was nothing else that essentially. It was just that uh there was some misguidance by some people that directed me in the path of finances; I got in over my head and...
Goodson: What are some examples of what they would be?
Orsini: Uh, agreeing to uh, to doing different types of mortgages, that this would be paid off and I was in over my head I didn’t understand what they were really doing and then my husband was at a point with his business. He was saying take care of it, take care of it. He wasn’t really-really involved in all of and he expected me to just come home with the bill of sale. You know what I’m saying. He wanted it out of his hair. You know how you men are he didn’t like a lot of details you just want the woman to go clean up the mess, give it to me, I see policemen are different, y’all wanna hear all the details.
Goodson: I like details.
Dixon: (Laughs)
Orsini: Most men they wanna-they wanna know right here. At home, I bet you’re not detailed oriented you want to know two or three words. So that’s the way men are and that’s the way he operated one or two words it was clear it was over with it was solved. And I listened to some advice and had a convoluted, tangled up real estate mess. That I-that I ended up being messed up over.
Update
Mary Lee Orsini died at age 55
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